Stable genetics help

[indigowulf]

Ok, Im willing to give a $5 value package (see my fund raiser thread) to the person who can help me understand the genetic strings for my horses and the stings in general
Like, help me figure out what my current horses have, (most are basic at this time) and help me understand the string and what is where on the string, ect.

All of these are childless starters, unless otherwise noted.

official shown genetics I know I have: (would love to know what the code string looks like for each of these, ie ?? ?? Xx ??, and so on)

sooty buckskin

chestnut with flaxen

bay leopard spot appy

Black leopard spot appaloosa

black sabino

bay

red roan

grey sabino (mother)
Grullo (father)
grey dun (offspring)


I cant find it! there was an official ruling on her, but it got poofed- I *think* she was a dunillo:



Got one from Dunkel- she's a black silver dapple
and her parents are black silver dapple and grey.

[indigowulf]

What I think I know (but I probly dont!)

each of these possible cominations has its own spot on the genetic chain

EE, Ee, ee
AA, Aa, AAt, ATa, AtAt, aa
CC, Cc, cc
RR, Rr, rr
DD, Dd, dd
GG, Gg, gg
WW, Ww, ww
LL, Ll, ll
NN, Nn, nn
TT, Tt, tt
OO, Oo, oo
PP, Pp, pp
FF, Ff, ff
ZZ, Zz, zz
BB, Bb, bb


Here is one part that completely confuses me on thestable website:
top box- if buckskin -if palamino
2nd box- if brown -if bay -if chestnut -if black

What determines those?

And what's in the boxes with blanks?


Im going to attempt ((later)) to do the codes for each of the ones mentioned above, someone please tell me if I have this whole thing all coocoo backwards!

sooty buckskin

chestnut with flaxen

bay leopard spot appy

Black leopard spot appaloosa= EE aa cc rr dd gg ww L? nn tt oo zz

black silver dapple

black sabino

bay

red roan= ee RR cc dd gg ww ll tt oo zz F?

grey sabino (has child- with a Grullo)
Grullo (has child with a grey sabino)
the offspring- grey dun

dunillo- ee CC DD F? zz oo tt ll gg ww

black silver dapple offspring
black silver dapple father
grey mother

[red_uni387]

I believe the blank boxes are possible codes for the horses that show whatever's on the top that's how I've been looking at it anyway XD

and the if brown, bay, buckskin stuff is to see if your horse has a certain gene. so like I have a perlino, and that's listed under if brown and if bay, so I know she has one of those as a base coat, I think.....

[springacres]

The blank boxes just mean that the combination would look the same as the color listed above.  So for instance, a brown horse with one cream gene would still be a sooty buckskin whether it was AtAt ot Ata for agouti.

And here is what I can figure out:

sooty buckskin - At? E? Cc dd gg rr ww ll ?? oo ?? tt ?? zz ??

flaxen chestnut - ?? ee cc dd gg rr ww ll ?? oo ?? tt ff ?? ??

bay leopard appaloosa - A? E? cc dd gg rr ww L? nn oo ??  tt ?? zz ??

black leopard appaloosa - aa E? cc dd gg rr ww L? nn oo ??  tt ?? zz ??

black sabino - aa E? cc dd gg rr ww ll ?? O? Pp tt ?? zz ??

bay - A? E? cc dd gg rr ww ll ?? oo ?? tt ?? zz ??

red roan - ?? ee cc dd gg R? ww ll ?? oo ?? tt F? zz ??

A dunalino could be bay-based (buckskin + dun), chestnut based (palomino + dun) or black based (smoky black + dun) so I really can't help you with that one without knowing which combination she was based on to begin with, sorry :/

[indigowulf]

Thank you so much!! Now I only need to learn where the "if brown, if bay" stuff comes from. I get where red/black come from, but not the others geneticly.

springacres, set yourself up an order for customs valuing $5 from my fundraising thread ok hun?

[springacres]

ok, will do

[quyllur]

Bay and brown come from the Agouti gene from what I understand.

Anything with an A? would be a bay, anything with an At? would be a brown.  If the horse were AAt I suppose it would be both...

[springacres]

No, an AAt horse would be bay carrying brown.

[quyllur]

Good to know.  I'm not sure how the whole brown (At) bit works in real life or in The Stable.

[Silvanon]

For all of these, I'm giving the known genetics given that the horse displays no other color patterns.

sooty buckskin  - sooty buckskin is a brown horse with a single cream gene added.  At? E? Cc rr dd gg ww ll ?? tt oo ?? ?? zz ??  

chestnut with flaxen -  ?? ee cc rr dd gg ww ll ?? tt oo ?? ff ?? ??

bay leopard spot appy - A? ?? cc rr dd gg ww L? nn tt oo ?? ?? zz ??

Black leopard spot appaloosa - aa ?? cc rr dd gg ww L? nn tt oo ?? ?? zz ??

black sabino - aa ?? cc rr dd gg ww ll ?? tt oo Pp ?? zz ??

bay - A? ?? cc rr dd gg ww ll ?? tt oo ?? ?? zz ??

red roan - ?? ee cc R? dd gg ww ll ?? tt oo ?? F? ?? ??

grey sabino (mother) - ?? ?? cc rr dd G? ww ll ?? tt Oo Pp ?? ?? B?
Grullo (father) - aa ?? cc rr Dd gg ww ll ?? tt oo ?? ?? zz ??
grey dun (offspring) - ?a ?? cc Dd Gg ww ll ?? tt oo ?? ?? ?? B?

... ran out of time, will do the rest later.

[indigowulf]

This is so helpful, I think I'm starting to get it!
Silv, did you want customs? Breeding season is coming before the month is over, good time to get pairs

[springacres]

Silv - according to the Stable website, flaxen is a recessive gene.  So F? would be a normal chestnut.

[Silvanon]

You're quite right springacres, thanks.  I got in a little too much of a hurry there. XD  And, I appologize, I managed to miss that you'd already done out most of the genetic codes. ^^;;

[Silvanon]

Ok, so indigo, I'm not sure at what point you're confused about horse genetics, so I'll just run through everything.

There's three different types of gene loci.  There's loci that make base coats, there's loci that modify base coats, and there's loci that put patterns of white on the horse.

The loci that make the base coats are A, E, W, and G.  

First let's talk about W and G. Those two are simple, because they come in and take over the coat and cover up anything else.  They're dominantely expressed, so if a horse carries it, he shows it.  Modifying genes don't generally act strongly or at all on W and G.  W is for White.  WW or Ww makes a white horse, while ww makes a some-other-color horse.  White covers up everything else.

G, the Grey locus, covers up everything except white.  Grey is also dominante, so GG or Gg will be a grey horse.  From among the base-coat-modifying genes, Dun will sometimes show on a grey horse, but Cream doesn't.

E, the chestnut (or red) locus, is also bossy, but it's recessively expressed.  If the E locus has ee, then the horse will have a chestnut base coat.  The cream and dun modifiers do act on chestnut.  More on that in a minute.  Because E is recessively expressed, a horse can be carrying chestnut without showing it (Ee).

If neither the W, G nor E locus have hijacked the coat color, then the A locus gets its chance to shine.  The A locus has three different genes which can make three different coat colors.  The most dominant is A, Bay, followed by At, Brown, and finally the recessive a, Black.  The A locus works out as follows:
AA - Bay
AAt - Bay
Aa - Bay
AtAt - Brown
Ata - Brown
aa - Black

Ok, that's it for the base coat.  Now on to the modifiers.  The two main modifiers are the Cream locus, C, and the Dun locus, D.  Both act on chestnut, bay, brown and black base coats.  (There are also coat-specific modifiers, which will discuss after.)

The Cream gene is dominantely expressed, but it shows differently depending on whether there's one C cream gene or two.
One C gene (Cc):
on Bay -> makes Buckskin
on Brown -> makes Sooty Buckskin
on Black -> makes Smokey Black
on Chestnut -> makes Palomino
Two C genes (CC):
on Bay -> makes Perlino
on Brown -> makes Perlino
on Black -> makes Smokey Creme
on Chestnut -> makes Cremelo

The Dun gene is also dominantly expressed, but it shows the same whether it's DD or Dd.  It acts on the following base coats:
on Bay -> makes Yellow Dun
on Brown -> makes Mouse Dun
on Black -> makes Blue Dun aka Gruello
on Chestnut -> makes Red Dun
and sometimes it shows on grey for a Grey Dun.

Coat-specific modifiers and Pattern genes in the next posts.

[Silvanon]

Now let's talk about coat-specific modifiers.  These are modifiers that have a specific effect on the coat colors generated only by one locus.  They are the Flaxen locus, F, the Silver Dapple locus, Z, and the Fleabitten locus, B.

The Flaxen locus works only on the E locus chestnut coat base.  It causes a chestnut horse to have a lighter mane, ranging from near-white to pinkish-red.  If a horse is chestnut, then the Flaxen locus has a chance to show.  Flaxen is recessively expressed, so a flaxen horse is ff.  FF and Ff are non-flaxen.  A horse with ff who is a base coat other than chestnut will not show flaxen.  In other words, the F-locus can have whatever genes it wants, if the coat isn't chestnut it's not going to manage to do a thing to the mane color.

The Silver Dapple locus works only on the A locus coats, or on Bay, Brown and Black horses.  It causes the mane to become lighter, similar to Flaxen, and can also cause lightening and dappling throughout the main body of the horse.  Silver Dapple is domiantely expressed, so ZZ or Zz will be Silver Dapple.  A horse who doesn't show an A-locus base coat cannot show Silver Dapple.

The Fleabitten locus, B, works only on the G locus grey coat base.  It causes random very small patches of darker hair throughout the grey coat.  Fleabitten is recessively expressed, so bb shows fleabitten whereas BB and Bb are not-fleabitten.  Again fleabites show only on grey base coats.

[Silvanon]

Finally lets talk about pattern loci.  Pattern loci are Roan (R), Appaloosa (L), Tobiano (T), and Overo (O).

Roan causes white hairs scattered randomly (about every-other hair) throughout the body of the horse, generally with less on the head and legs.  Roan is dominately expressed, so RR and Rr make a roan horse.

Appaloosa causes spots and often a sort of roaning on the horse.  The L gene determines whether Appaloosa shows or not.  Appy is dominately expressed, so LL and Ll are appy horses, whereas ll is non-appy.  Appaloosa has a companion locus, N, that determines how spots are distributed.  The N locus plays out as follows:
NN - snowflake appy
Nn - blanket appy
nn - leopard appy

Tobiano causes a specific paint pattern on horses.  It is dominately expressed, so TT and Tt are tobiano horses, whereas tt is a non-tobiano.

Overo causes a different paint pattern on horses.  Overo is also dominately expressed.  However, double dominante Overo is leathal, so all living horses who show Overo are Oo.  oo is a non-Overo horse.  Overo has a companion locus, P, that determines exactly what type of Overo pattern will show if Overo shows.  It plays out as follows:
PP - Frame Overo
Pp - Sabino Overo
pp - Splash Overo

[Ravvana]

Flaunt it with pride, Silv XD

[Silvanon]

LOL!  Thank you, thank you! *takes a bow*

[YourLoveOnly]

I will be reading all of this later, but Silv lemme just say you're absolutely amazing.
.. And now I wanna figure out coat strings as well xD
Expect a thread in the morning!

[indigowulf]

that was amazing silv! I didnt know anything about the recessive expressed genetics, I would have had that all completly wrong. The rest, I had an idea on, but you've made it simple to understand. Thank you!

Im working on a little something for you as thanks....

[indigowulf]

...and most of 2 days later, something flys in and lands in front of silvanon, eyeballing her shiney ribbon, then puffing its feathers and asking for a chin scratch...

[indigowulf]

So, did I get this right- black silver dapple- aa E? cc dd gg rr ww ll ?? oo ?? ?? Z? ??

[Silvanon]

Ooo, beautiful bird, thank you!    

And yes, that looks right!

[Ryuukokoro]

Oooo congrats Silvanon! That is a gorgeous bird!

[Dunkel.Prinzessin204]

The one you got from me is showing flaxen. Silver Dapple is the only way flaxen can show on a non chestnut horse.

Edit: I at least I remember Rav saying that somewhere.()()

[Silvanon]

Um, well, Silver Dapple makes an A-base-coat horse's mane "flaxen-esque" but it isn't the flaxen gene in action, it's the Silver Dapple gene.  The horse may very well also have flaxen genes (f), but there's no way to know without breeding.

[indigowulf]

Ya I had PM'd her to ask for clarification on that one, had me confused too

[indigowulf]

Is there any way to know what the A/At/a is on a buckskin before breeding it? I have no idea if he has a brown or a bay base.

[Ravvana]

Brown-based buckskins are "sooty" and bay-based buckskins are "golden."

Sooty looks like this...


...and golden is lighter and brighter. He is golden buckskin, meaning bay-based.

[red_uni387]

((sorry for invading, but I'm confused x_x))



Dinah looks sorta in the middle of both, so I have no idea which base she has XD

[indigowulf]

Thank you!

[Ravvana]

red, she is also a golden buckskin

[red_uni387]

thanks!