[Quinsta] A discussion about grade breeding

[Silvanon]

I understand that there's some different ideas floating around about how grade percentages are calculated.  So I thought I'd post and let you all know how I calculate it.

Let's start with some pure breed quinsta.

This mare, Eagle, is 100% pure Arabian: http://www.secundi.net/pedigree.php?ID=301196
This stallion, Daneina, is 100% pure Gypsy Vanner: http://www.secundi.net/pedigree.php?ID=260986

If Eagle were bred with an Arabian stud, the foal would also be 100% Arabian, and if Daneina were bred to a Gypsy Vanner mare, the foal would be 100% Gypsy Vanner.

If Eagle and Daneina are bred together, then the foal gets half its genes from Eagle and half from Daneina.  Hence, half its genes are Arabian, and half are Gypsy vanner.  So, their grade mare offspring, Angel, is 50% Arabian and 50% Gypsy Vanner.   http://www.secundi.net/pedigree.php?ID=411840

Now let's say that grade mare Angel is bred to an Arabian stallion, Wesin.  The foal gets half its genes from Wesin, so we know it's got 50% Arabian genes right there.  The other half of its genes come from Angel.  Angel has half Arabian genes and half Gypsy Vanner genes to pass on.  So from Angel the foal gets another 25% Arabian genes (50%/2), and 25% Gypsy Vanner genes (50%/2).  It's sort of confusing to say 50% Arabian, 25% Arabian and 25% Gypsy Vanner.  Let's combine those two Arabian sets together.  We now have that the foal is 75% Arabian and 25% Gypsy Vanner.  The foal in this case is Rosencrantz: http://www.secundi.net/pedigree.php?ID=486161

Now let's breed Rosencrantz to an Arabian mare, Jalila.  Jalila, being 100% Arabian, gives the foal 50% Arabian genes for her share.  For Rosencrantz's half, he gives 37.5% Arabian genes (75%/2) and 12.5% Gypsy Vanner genes (25%/2).  Let's add the Arabian parts together again, and we find that the foal, Ophelia, is 87.5% Arabian, and 12.5% Gypsy Vanner: http://www.secundi.net/pedigree.php?ID=505496


Ophelia is more than 80% Arabian, so if she were bred to an Arabian stallion, there's a chance her offspring might be considered full-blooded Arabian under Quinsta rules.

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Now let's consider some less-effective tactics for breeding grades back to pure.

Let's say we have a grade mare and a grade stallion who are both 50% Arabian and 50% Gypsy Vanner, and we breed the pair together.  From the mare the foal gets 25% Arabian and 25% Gypsy Vanner genes.   From the stallion the foal gets 25% Arabian and 25% Gypsy Vanner genes.  Adding the two Arabian sets and the two Gypsy Vanner sets together, we see that the foal is 50% Arabian and 50% Gypsy Vanner - no closer to pure than the previous generation.

Let's say we have a grade mare who is 50% Arabian and 50% Gypsy Vanner, and we send her off for breeder's choice.  Since our mare is a grade, we have absolutely no idea what breed the father is.  So, from the father the foal gets 50% Other.  From the mother the foal gets 25% Arabian and 25% Gypsy Vanner.  The end result is a foal who is 25% Arabian, 25% Gypsy Vanner, and 50% Other.  The foal is actually further away from pure than the previous generation.

Please feel free to ask here if you have any questions!

[Ravvana]

The "Other" from Breeder's Choice only applies to grade mares, yes? If a purebred mare is sent to Breeder's Choice, won't the foal be 100% mom's breed?

[springacres]

That's correct, from what I understand, Ravvana.

Silv, thanks for clearing this up.  This is how I always thought grade breeding worked with Quinsta.

[Silvanon]

Rav - that's right.  Or put more specifically, Breeders Choice always has the mare covered by a stud who's the same breed as her.  So send a grade mare, she's bred to a grade stallion.  Of who knows what parentage.  If a quin is on one of the pure breed linearts, then it's considered 100% that breed.

[Keilin Alyr]

Heh, I feel a bit silly for so clumsily wording how I understand Grade purity, but I'm glad I got the basic gist of it. My super secret projects of doom are safe. =)

I'd actually been really curious as to how the purity percentage works out for foals that are the result of a Grade mare and a Breeder's Choice stud, if the stud would turn out to be one of the breeds represented in the pedigree or 100% random Grade. Good to note it's the latter. Though now my crazy brain wants to try and breed a more than 87.5% Other foal. I don't think that's how it works... XD

Although I am still curious, is there still a chance of Grade offspring picking up unusual traits from Breeder's Choice, such as a Clydesdale/Arabian cross inheriting roan or tobiano from their mysterious father?

[Silvanon]

Although I am still curious, is there still a chance of Grade offspring picking up unusual traits from Breeder's Choice, such as a Clydesdale/Arabian cross inheriting roan or tobiano from their mysterious father?

There's certainly a chance of something like that happening.  The grade stud used might be loaded down with random genes, you never know.

[Ravvana]

Is it possible for a purebred mare to get interesting random genes from a Breeder's Choice stud? I've bred my Friesian mare to BC studs twice, but both foals have been black. Is that just dumb luck, or is it not possible to introduce cream/dun/roan/paint/appaloosa/etc into a breed from a BC stud?

[Keilin Alyr]

I believe that purebred mares bred to Breeder's Choice will only inherit genes that are represented in the breed, which may be why Friesian BC only yields blacks and Clydesdale BC has never yielded cream, dun, or roan. I have seen a few really nice surprises from Arabian and Vanner BC, such as cream and dun, but those genes were already represented in the mother's breeds.

[Silvanon]

If you send a pure mare to BC, the foal has a chance of inheriting any genes that show up in officially recognized purebreds of the breed in Real Life, or that are already in the current Quinsta population.  For example, you're never going to get a bay foal from sending a Friesian mare to BC, because the bay gene is absent from purebred Friesians in Real Life, and no current Quinsta Friesian has the bay gene.

[Keilin Alyr]

Ooh... does that mean if someone successfully breeds, let's say cream, dun, and roan into Friesians that those genes will then be accessible to Friesians via Breeder's Choice? Then again, even if this were the case, I imagine probability would be very much against the breeder, much like chaining multiple critical hits in a d20 system...

What, I'm not a roleplay geek, honest. =3

[toffeeca]

Ok, I have seen some people saying that the longer the pure line the quicker that line will produce a pure when you have made a grade (so a grade that has 4 generations of one pure breed) and I never thought this was correct because a quin can never be more than 100% of one breed. But I just wanted the official word on if that was correct from you. I hope that makes sense.

Also, what is the chance of getting a pure arab quin when you breed a 87.5% arab to a pure arab? Or is that a super secret quin secret?

[Winged]

Ah, this does help clear it up for me. Thanks! I had thought it was just percentaging the different breeds in the pedigree but this makes more sense.

[YourLoveOnly]

@toffeeca: With Silv's explanation I think you are right, because the first example she shows has a 2nd gen Arab and a 1st gen Gypsy Vanner and she says the offspring would be 50% of each breed. I always thought if it had 3 Arabs and 1 Gypsy Vanner in the pedigree it would be 75% Arab and 25% Gypsy Vanner. And I am now utterly confused on how to calculate how much % a Grade is.

[zarzamora]

just like real horses I suppose- even 1st gens come from somewhere- so you have to presume their lineage is also what 'it' is. It inherits 50% from each side- so if mum is 50% arab and 50% vanner, and you dad is a 100% vanner you'll get 25% arab and 25% vanner from mum, and 50% vanner from dad, add it all up and you'll get 75% vanner and 25% arab.

Thats how I always figured it worked, so it all makes sense to me.

[YourLoveOnly]

I get it too now that I took some more time to read it.. I just imagined it was the easy way first.. Just count horses of each breed in the pedigree XD So if it had 10 horses in the pedigree and 8 were Arabs I thought it was 80% Arab. But now I get why that is not true ^^

[Ryuukokoro]

Okay Ryuu is utterly confused too. @_@ Please tell me if I get this right...

So my original girl Kitesh here is 50% Vanner and 50% Clyds, yes?
http://www.secundi.net/critterpage.php?ID=486147

And now I have her daughter here, who is ....*guessing* 50% Clyds, 25% Clyds, and 25% Vanner? So she's 75% Clyds and 25% Vanner?
http://www.secundi.net/pedigree.php?ID=505551

So if I breed her to another full Clyds this upcoming season, THAT offspring will be... 50% Clyds, 37.5% Clyds, and 12.5% Vanner? So 87.5% Clyds and 12.5% Vanner? So would this potential offspring possibly be a full Clyd because it has more than 80% Clyd genes? Or would I need to breed this potential offspring to get a possibly full Clyd baby?

Silvanon's example confuses me because if Ophelia is 87.5% Arabian, why is she done on the Grade lineart and not the Arabian? 0.o Was that just random chance or is it only the babies of 80%+ grades that can possibly be pure?

[Sunchaser]

Ryuu, youre correct in your math. An di believe the reason that Ophelia has a chance of breeding a pure while her mom/dad doesnt is because of the fact that they themselves are not 80% or over in their lineage, as such they dont have the ability to breed a pure while Ohelia who is over 80% has a chance of producing the purebred.

eta:

if yoru 80% plus in yourself your able to produce a full bebeh but if your 80% below then you are unable to produce a pure baby.

[YourLoveOnly]

Ryuu, that is correct. But the Grade has to be at least 80% of that breed and thén the other parent has to be of that breed to, then you have a chance to get a pure horse. So in this case the horse that has 87,5% Clyde has to bred to a full Clyde and then it can become a purebred baby. The previous breeding would have been with a Grade that is 75% Clyde, so although the resulting baby will be over 80%, the parent was not. And the parent has to be over 80% to produce a pure baby.

[Ryuukokoro]

Ohhhh gotcha! It's the parents' genes that indicate whether or not the baby will be pure, not the babies genes. (Well, I know the babies genes come from the parents genes... oh, you know what I mean. XD;; )

Thanks guys! Now I get it. Looks like at the least we're looking at 4 gens to get a grade to pure. Nice to know!

[YourLoveOnly]

Yep exactly ^^ I am glad I get it now, even though it makes me a little sad that I have to rethink all my plans now XD At least it's better to know now than never

[Ryuukokoro]

*giggle* I just noticed YLO uses a comma for a decimal point rather than a period. When I was younger I bought a book from England which did the same thing, I like finding differences like that! X3

[YourLoveOnly]

True, over here they teach it that way, but USA uses . instead, right? Gotta love slight varieties like that. Just like color vs colour (although in The Netherlands schools teach you to write color)

[Silvanon]

Sounds like everyone's questions have been correctly answered.  If you're still wanting clarification on something please post (again, if needed).

[Keilin Alyr]

I'll admit, I'm a little saddened that it's a minimum of four generations from Grade back to pure breed, as opposed to three. Three generations fits nicely in the displayed pedigree table, but four does not, trimming off at least the founding generation. My poor project babies are going to be missing ancestors on their visible pedigree. XD

[YourLoveOnly]

Oh yes, I did want to mention that, I don't think everyone knows that is happening. I know the first time I figured it out I panicked a little and started checking all my Quin's to see if there wasn't any hidden inbreeding XD Would it be a possibility to make the visible pedigree longer?

[Ryuukokoro]

0_o I didn't notice that either!

Ryuu is dense. ^^;;

[YourLoveOnly]

It's not obvious There is nothing that shows if the pedigree goes on, I only noticed because I was clicking around in a pedigree out of boredom.. XD

[Keilin Alyr]

To be fair, nothing really advertises extended pedigrees on PI either, though I've always been under the assumption that a pony in question has the potential of about 5 billion generations if a pedigree is mostly filled. Holdover from pure color breeding on old PI.

On the flip side, most Quinsta have been relatively short-lined until very recently. I know it threw me the first time I documented a 6th-generation Quin for my records. It never dawned on me that they've been breeding for that long! XD

But I think we'll begin to get used to the idea of checking full pedigrees as time goes on, considering that there are 6th and even 7th-generation Quinsta out there even now. I know if I see Angel or Nuatunmed or Chanda or Suhayb or another popular multi-generation Quin at the very bottom of a pedigree that there's more to check.

Though I think I'll probably document "missing" ancestors on my project Grades and multi-generation purebreeds. The OCD-ish part of my brain is willing to compromise on that. =)