Dog Questions? To Spay or not to spay?

[tierasa]

I asked this over on the PI new Pet Association forum and got some interesting responses. I thought I would ask here as well since there are people here who I feel are knowledgeable about dogs.

First of all,  I'm definitely in favor of spaying, but we have this new little chow girl. She's three months old now, and I've read it's best to spay before the first cycle.  I would personally love to be able to breed her someday because she's just gorgeous. However, my parents have misgivings about a) getting anymore dogs, and b) the cost of raising a litter.  At the same time, my dad is not against having her bred to someone else's stud.  However, puppies tend to sell better when you own both parents. So the question is, should we spay her or not? 

The fact that she's pretty isn't the only consideration. I've handled and often visit both of her parents, so I know she's from good stock. I personally know the breeder and go over there quite often or we wouldn't have her. As for Ming herself, she's fiesty, but lovable. I've already considered what kind of temperament a possible mate would have to have.

And as I said, I'm in favor of spaying. I just wanted some other opinions. From what I've read it's best to spay early, but I'm worried if we do spay her than we'll regret it later especially since once she's spayed we can no longer show her.  I feel she's too young to tell yet if she's show quality. Plus,We've never owned a female dog in my lifetime, so this is different for me all the way around.


Here's my little girl.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l84/tierasa/DSCF0618.jpg

Here she is in more of a conformation pose.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l84/tierasa/DSCF0616.jpg

[PonyMama]

Generally cheaper to spay before first cycle, but if somewhere you guys may choose to breed maybe take the hit of goign through a couple cycles to really think this through.

I have a female cat who is not spayed either and I know I should but she is a Beautiful bengal, and I woudl lov eot get kittens from hr and the hubby and I are himming and hawing over the idea, but in the same boat, the cost of raising a litter, we are unsure so we are going to see how we feel when she turns 2, if we are still on the fence then I think we will just spay her.

[indigowulf]

its also just plain healthier for the dog to be spayed. Also, according to sources, fully 1/3 of dogs in shelters (and thus often put down) are purebred.

http://oregonvma.org/care-health/spay-or-neuter-your-pet

[Leafy]

if you want to breed her then wait, let her grow into herself a bit more and see how she turns out. from a show standpoint, I'm not seeing any of the wrinkling in the forehead a judge would be looking for, not enough face smoosh (not a fan of face smoosh, but eh), and the hind end's too straight. You'd need to show her and get her to be a champ or you're going to have a HARD time selling the puppies in this economy :\

Spaying early is best, but it's not going to hurt her to wait a couple years either if you do want to commit to showing her and getting her points. It's easier to finish the girls anyway, for the studs then there's too much competition and then on top of that, advertising.

[Ryuukokoro]

I would also recommend spaying, not just because of the cost of raising a litter but also, as indigo said, I've heard it's a lot healthier for the animals and lengthens their lifespan. And what if the not all of the puppies sold? Would you keep them yourself? Give them away? Take them to a shelter? You have to think about all possibilities.

You probably want to talk to a vet but I think I heard it's healthier to let a female dog have one cycle and then spay? But I never paid much attention since I don't raise dogs, so I would ask a vet to be sure.

[WillowDragon]

I would agree to spaying as well.

The cost is obviously a factor, but primarily, breeding any animal big or small is a huge responsibilty. If you are unsure now, it is better to spay her and maybe regret the unknown, than the have her bred and regret it once there are other little lives in the equation.

Though I have to mention, its not completely true that spaying is healthier. Though I do understand why charities and shelters would say that.

Willow xx

[indigowulf]

absolutely not on the having 1 cycle before spay. as the link i posted above points out, there is a .5% (that's half a percent, not 5) chance of certain cancers in dogs who never have thier first heat, as opposed to a 8% chance in dogs who have had 2 heats before spaying (and much higher in dogs who never get spayed or welp)

If your pet is going to be a companion animal rather than a breeding animal, then there are no benefits to allowing her to have a litter or to go through a heat period.

It is actually healthier for your dog or cat never to experience a heat as it lessen's the animal's chance of getting mammary cancer and decreases the animal's stress and risks due to pregnancy and delivery.

Research indicates that dogs spayed prior to their first heat have less than a half of one percent chance of experiencing mammary cancer as compared to an eight percent chance after the second heat.

Cats spayed after their first heat have a seven times greater chance of suffering from mammary cancer than cats spayed prior to their first heat.

[Leafy]

The likelyhood of cancers are increased by genetics and overall poor breeding too, but I would agree, spaying before her fist cycle is a good idea if you're not going to show her.

[Spixy]

There must really be a difference from all countries it seems o.O

I own (with my parents) two dogs - Springer spaniels. We own a bitch (10 years) and a young dog (2 years) both are not sprayed. I'm personally against spraying if I know that I might want puppies one day. We've talked about neutering our young dog, but decided against it as I'm doing hunting training with him and we might want some puppies from him at a later point. Our bitch hasn't been sprayed due to it not being neccesary (we do keep them seperated while she's in heat).

So I'd personally say don't spray if you're unsure if you want puppies or not. Even though you don't spray, there's no reason for you to actually have puppies, but the possibility is there. Dogs - luckily - aren't like cats; accidents rarely happen and you know exacly when they're in heat. As for longer/healthier lifespan? I think it varies from breed to breed. None of our dogs have been seriously sick yet and neither have any of their siblings/parents (we keep close contact).

My two cents ^__^

[Ryuukokoro]

There must really be a difference from all countries it seems o.O

That's very true. According to the Humane Society website, approximately 3-4 million cats and dogs are euthanized every year in America. We are a big country but we have a huge overbreeding problem with our pets because people are not responsible enough with them. So there's a lot of effort put into spreading education about the importance of spaying and neutering, which is probably not true for other countries where the overbreeding isn't as big a problem.

Not that I'm saying tierasa is one of those irresponsible people because she's considering not spaying! On the contrary, I think a thread like this is a really smart idea because it gets people with different views talking about the subject and looking at it from all sides.

[Leafy]

^^^^^THIS^^^^^

Kudos for that, you get the opinion of a lot of people who've had dogs, who've done dog showing, and those who feel strongly your pet should be fixed for something for her own good other than the fear of overpopulation. Lots of options and opinions ^_^

[sera]

i would say that there just might not be as big of an emotional response to putting down animals in other countries; no offense to anyone who might live somewhere else.  lol  i've just heard that, like, in Mexico there's a huge problem with feral dogs because of a lack of spaying and neutering, but, well, the people generally seem to have other things to worry about.

In quite a few countries, people don't have a problem eating dogs and cats, so. . . Well, food sources are rarely areas that one tries to cut down on breeding.  *coughs*

If you're ever going to move around stateside, it will probably be cheaper and easier on you in the long run to get her spayed.  Our Shih-Tzu is currently un-neutered because my husband thinks he's going to want one from Batsu's line.  We have to pay more to register him with the city because he isn't fixed.  We do, however, keep a very close eye on him and there's a chance we simply won't end up breeding him in the long run. ^^  We'll just have to see.  Ah, and one thing i will be doing is before we do breed him, is try to line up a few people who would be interested in a puppy.  ^^

On the other hand, my parents spayed their border collie and that's a decision they've deeply regretted for years now.  They love her so much and would adore to have a Dandy puppy, but that option is no longer available to them.

i personally am a fan of spaying and neutering simply because there are so many animals in shelters who would love to find a forever home, but i don't think it's a decision that you need to rush.  Yes, there's a higher chance of certain health risks, but, as i just learned from our vet, our spayed German Shepherd has a high chance of developing certain types of infections caused by a lack of estrogen.  *Sighs*  So you're going to have the chance of problems either way.

Good luck on your decision! 

[tierasa]

Thank you guys for being so willing to discuss this with me and for providing so much great information. I had done my research, but I'm still learning more.

Also thank you so much for not being rude about it. This is the kind of discussion I wanted to have.

Some people have said since she doesn't appear to be breed standard that she has nothing to contribute to the gene pool and should be spayed.  I've read what breed standard is from the AKC, but I'm still not sure I understand or even if she is old enough to tell whether or not she is breed standard.

[indigowulf]

I say the akc can bite my shiney metal butt, to quote Bender (mostly). thier breed standards on purebreds half the time are outdated and archaic. They have encouraged things in breeding that have caused breeds severe health issues. Such as the arch of the back and leg placement on german shepherds, which has led to the breed having severe hip displasia issues- narrow heads on dobies that has led to brain trauma simply because the skull cavity isnt large enough for the brain as they grow, and numerous other problems they call "ideal standards".

They also claim to support spay and neuter, but wont allow altered dogs to show- on the flip side, they wont allow undocked tails or unclipped ears for other breeds, something many view as abusive alteration, as there is no medical reason for it, purely cosmetic slicing and dicing.

So, if you decide you want to breed her, forget the AKC. Every dog Ive owned has been a mixed breed, usually wolf hybrid, which would make the AKC wet themselves. And Im here to say, they had much much more to offer the world and the gene pool then a pretty pose.

[Ryuukokoro]

They also claim to support spay and neuter, but wont allow altered dogs to show

This particularly annoys me. >.<

[sera]

They also claim to support spay and neuter, but wont allow altered dogs to show

This is actually probably a business decision; you don't want a dog to win that you can't make money off of by selling its puppies.  ^^;;

[Ryuukokoro]

I would say then to leave that decision up to the owners of the dogs, not the AKC.

[Leafy]

AKC's a mess, breed standards are just that, a standard, and they've been upgraded to reflect upon the extremes seen today :\ Pitt Bulls were bred to literally take down a bull in a pit. Could today's pitt bulls do that? Not a chance. Same for Bull dogs, those things can't even run anymore much less grab a bull by the nose. Most of the herding dogs have been lucky in that they still have a form and a function and have yet to fall prey to ridiculous breed standards. Pugs? They didn't have a form or a function, and they've changed DRASTICALLY from what they used to be, now, it's a huge miracle if they don't have any major health problems. Sure, they're cute... kinda, with their bug eyes and corkscrew tail, but the problems that come with that just aren't worth it :\

http://www.akc.org/breeds/chow_chow/index.cfm <- Chow breed standard.

[springacres]

I have to agree with Leafy, sadly.  The American Cocker Spaniel standard says about the dog's coat:

The ears, chest, abdomen and legs are well feathered, but not so excessively as to hide the Cocker Spaniel's true lines and movement or affect his appearance and function as a moderately coated sporting dog.

Well... this (click) does not look like a "moderately coated" dog to me, given her size.

[Leafy]

yeah, that's part of breed show politics (lovely little cocker btw), for the most part you can see where all her parts go, straight front legs, domed head, the eyes are clean although they should have cleaned her tear stains, top line is good and solid, nice angle to her rear legs, looks like a sweet little dog, I'd love to have her lol. But with dog showing, especially with the long-haired breeds, it's the clip as much as the dog itself that will win it for you, she's got an ok grooming job, where her feet meet the floor shouldn't be SO obvious, the groomer should have rounded that out a lot more, and there are a few bothersome stray hairs that are longer than the others, ah dog show politics, how do I hate thee.

Would I take her out to do the purpose she's originally bred for looking like that? HECK NO. You don't go diving into underbrush to fetch ducks in a clip like that, that dog would absorb algae like a Sham-WOW absorbs soda.

Oooooh, if you ever get a chance to, there's a movie called "Best in Show." It's a comedy about dog shows and the CRAZY people that go to them (they actually are crazy, no lie, if you get around to the shows, you WILL see people like these, it's pretty hilarious...). It's a good way to see some of the politics at work too.

[springacres]

Would I take her out to do the purpose she's originally bred for looking like that? HECK NO. You don't go diving into underbrush to fetch ducks in a clip like that, that dog would absorb algae like a Sham-WOW absorbs soda.

And that's what I'm talking about.  Breeding for extremes in this case has produced a dog that, while appealing, has a coat that would get in the way of the breed's original function.

However...back to the original topic.

In general, I am 100% in favor of spaying/neutering.  However, in this case, since you appear to be considering showing the dog in conformation, I'd get an expert's opinion.  Talk to her breeder, or someone who has experience handling Chows in the show ring, and ask if they think she might be show quality.  Have either of her parents been shown?  What about her littermates or siblings?  Was she sold or given to your family with the understanding that she would NOT be bred if she was not considered show quality?

And, if you do decide to breed her eventually - get her thoroughly examined and x-rayed by a good vet beforehand, so you can make sure she doesn't have any obvious inheritable defects such as hip or elbow dysplasia or anything else that you wouldn't want passed down to the next generation of Chows.

[Leafy]

Then there's also the dogs bred for no function whatsoever, doodles (UGH), yorki-poo's, pugs, cockerpoo's, even chinese crested's had a job, and that job, was to look awesome. Although in a world run by Darwin, they would be extinct lol.

Spring has a VERY Good point, get her vet checked, there's so much you can't see that is able to be passed on.

[tierasa]

Thanks guys. You've been very informative and helpful.

I think at this point we're leaning toward getting her fixed. We really don't have the time or means to show her. Neither of her parents (both blue chows) were shown either.  I think we're just really happy to have her, and if it's better for her health that's probably what we'll do.  If we decide we want to actually breed chows later, we can always go looking for a pair.